January 3, 2004

Germans at D-Day commemoration

British war veterans were wrestling with mixed emotions yesterday after President Chirac invited the Germans to the sixtieth anniversary of the D-Day landings in France in June. . .

More than 10,000 British ex-servicemen are expected to join the Queen, the Prime Minister, President Bush and M Chirac on the Normandy beaches where, in 1944, up to 200,000 Allied troops, 5,000 ships and 11,000 aircraft converged for the landings.

What remained uncertain last night was the degree of proposed German participation in the celebrations as painful memories are reawakened in former combatants.

The Royal British Legion expects a “vocal minority” to protest against German inclusion, while American and Canadian veterans may also be less than pleased. Major-General Peter Martin, president of the Normandy Veterans’ Association, told The Times: “I think most veterans will have mixed feelings about this. In Normandy we came mostly up against SS Panzer divisions and they were a ruthless lot.

“It’s all a long time ago now but most veterans would say, ‘It’s still with me’. I think, on the whole, most people would be happy for the Chancellor to be there but we would have decidedly mixed feelings about German veterans.”

From the Times of London.

Posted by David on January 3, 2004 6:56 PM

Comments

How many Allied and German casualties were there on D-Day, and in the Battle of Normandy?

“Casualties” refers to all losses suffered by the armed forces: killed, wounded, missing in action (meaning that their bodies were not found) and prisoners of war. There is no "official" casualty figure for D-Day. Under the circumstances, accurate record keeping was very difficult.

In April and May 1944, the Allied air forces lost nearly 12,000 men and over 2,000 aircraft in operations which paved the way for D-Day.

Total Allied casualties on D-Day are estimated at 10,000, including 2500 dead. British casualties on D-Day have been estimated at approximately 2700. The Canadians lost 946 casualties. The US forces lost 6603 men.

The total German casualties on D-Day are not known, but are estimated as being between 4000 and 9000 men.

Over 425,000 Allied and German troops were killed, wounded or went missing during the Battle of Normandy. This figure includes over 209,000 Allied casualties, with nearly 37,000 dead amongst the ground forces and a further 16,714 deaths amongst the Allied air forces.

The losses of the German forces during the Battle of Normandy can only be estimated. Roughly 200,000 German troops were killed or wounded.

Today, twenty-seven war cemeteries hold the remains of over 110,000 dead from both sides: 77,866 German, 9386 American, 17,769 British, 5002 Canadian and 650 Poles.

Between 15,000 and 20,000 French civilians were killed, mainly as a result of Allied bombing.

Posted by: Peter Shriner on January 3, 2004 9:46 PM

Those figures are extraordinary. "The casualties sustained by the British army in the opening day of the Battle of Somme totalled 57,470, of which 19,240 were fatal.." according to http://www.stemnet.nf.ca/beaumont/somme.htm which seems authoritative.

So D-Day, despite its aura of hellishness, was much less bloody. But then, the Normandy figures are much worse, with almost as many from the Air Force as died on the first day of the Somme. And a minimum of 15,000 civilians from one comparatively small area, which compares with 30,000 civilians killed in Britain in the whole of WW2. (thats from memory, BTW)..

Posted by: david tiley on January 4, 2004 2:05 AM

This source cites civilian dead in the European Theater as:

Soviet Union ... 17,000,000
Poland ... 6,000,000
Germany ... 2,400,000
Greece ... 400,000
Rumania ... 400,000
France ... 350,000
Holland ... 250,000
Hungary ... 200,000
United Kingdom ... 100,000
Italy ... 60,000
Belgium ... 50,000
Bulgaria ... 50,000
Norway ... 6,000
Finland ... 4,000
Denmark ... 1,000

These numbers do not include the millions of Jewish civilians killed in the Holocaust.

This grimly effective map of the dead shows civilian and military losses in WWII, compiled from a wide range of sources. Again, 100,000 British civilian dead are listed.

Needless to say, WWII was a global disaster that grew to epic proportions.

Posted by: Peter Shriner on January 4, 2004 6:27 PM

The score card of casualties on D-Day and the six weeks leading upto to COBRA is indeeed horrendous. It has been exagerrated and if asked, people not there or not well versed in the history will give numbers that are orders of magnitutde off. And, of course, cinema, especially the Hollywood version is guilty of gross and foolish mis-information."Saving
Private Ryan" was just silly as to plot and mis-informing in the the first fifteen minutes were reports of anecdote turned into a total picture - and, for example "The Longest Day" had some good as well as some down right nonesense particularly the charcter outrageously played by John Wayne.

I suppose that the 60th anniversary will pretty much be it for decade anniversary as there won't be many of us still on two legs for the 70. Hats off to all. he comparisons with the Somme, for example, are the more valid, but for Americans the comparisons with such Civil War battles as The Peach Orchard and Cemetary Ridge at Gettysburg are the more telling. They were far more deadly than any of the WW battles cum qua.

As a small unit leader ( company) on Utah I think of us as lucky compared to the people at Omaha - but the Big killing ground for us as for all the allies was the month that followed.
S.M.Harris

Posted by: S. M. Harris on January 16, 2004 7:11 PM

Your numbers are very confusing. You give three different numbers for the casualties of the Allied. Please clear this up.

Posted by: Tiffany on February 16, 2004 5:22 PM

I agree. You need to put one chart of casualties, not a couple. People get confused when you do that, especially students doing research reports.

Posted by: Jake Rexine on May 31, 2004 10:26 PM

I am trying to find information about my uncle who was killed In Action during the taking of the Beaches of Normandy. His name was Sgt. Virgil E. Williams, US Army, 324th Inf, Company I. His letters and any information the family had of him and his records were lost and/or unintentionally destroyed by the family. My mother,(deceased), was Virgil's sister. I remember seeing several medals of his and nobody knows where they went. Virgil was shipped back to the states and buried at the Gilman Cemetery in Gilman West Virginia due to his gravely ill mother's wishes many years ago. I as well as others in the family would like to know mobe about Uncle (Pete) Virgil Williams, from Elkins, WV. Any information would be greatly appreciated as many of our family members have served in the military in one branch or another including the present Iraq war.

Thank You all for your service to our country!

Sincerely,

Charlotte Arbogast

Posted by: Charlotte Arbogast on May 25, 2008 10:27 PM
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